Organic Matter

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Alan in Vermont

New Member
This migt be something I could use as a cover crop on vacant land that I mow for mulch. That might be a possibility.

Crabber, how big is that vacant lot and what would you be mowing with? I think if it was let grow 3-4 feet high and cut with a sickle mower or scythe, if the patch was small enough, it would yield a bunch of material similar to coarse straw. Becase it grows so fast I think it could convert a lot of available nutrients into organic matter quickly. If I work one of my plots this year I've got to come up with some way to keep improving the soil. So far the crackpot owner has comdemned whatever I have tried. This was just about barren sand when I started so I was incorporating anything I could get free into it.

Wood chips first, tilled them in with an application of urea to get the N up. Chips that were on top of the ground would sprout 'shrooms overnight if it rained.

Don't do that again, all those mushrooms are why we got plant fungi.

Next was horse manure, 1/2 mile away, they supply the tractor to load it with, all I have to do is haul it. Way too much wood shavings in it so we had indications of N depletion. Easy to fix, lay some N on it and almost watch the shavings break down.

Don't do that again, the horse manure destroys the soil energy. She is heavy into talking to the spirits (I suspect about 86 proof spirits), dowsing to figure out where to plant things, etc.

I had the dairy farmer down the road manure it heavily for me three years in a row.

We don't want any more manure, it makes too many weeds grow

Never mind that all it was growing was milkweed and goldenrod when I started and that she has spent $0 and 0 hours in doing any of this.

So, this year, if I decide it is worth the hassle, I'm going to try putting it back into cucurbits and sowing Sudex in between the rows,letting it grow until the vines need the space. Then I'll either roll it flat and leave it for mulch for the next year or flail mow it and till it in.

Maybe that will be acceptable.
 

RonsGarden

Super Moderator
Staff member
Boy! You have quite the job ahead of you Alan!
I can relate about the low fertile sandy soils!
I find I cannot add enough organic matter! And there are no quick fixes in my case unless I bring in loads of healthy organic top soil....which I do not have the funds for, nor the energy to move it all around!
I am always on the look-out for perennials that require dry sandy soils, which also require low nitrogen levels! There are a lot of them!
Looking for veggies that require the same conditions is next to impossible unless I set up an irrigation system to supply moisture and nutrients! ...if I only had the money!!
 
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Alan in Vermont

New Member
This area has two primary soil types, either light sand or a heavy, almost clay loam. The result is either too dry, or too wet, sometimes in the same field.

I know it is said that you can't "make" topsoil but in four seasons I did a lot to get that sand to show some color and retain moisture. Left to my own I could have that into a very productive plot. I just can't find any way to inject any common sense into my dealings with the owner.

Prime example, one year we split the cost (she gardens as much of the plot as she wants) of electric fence to keep the coons out. Bottom wire 3-4 inches off the ground and one 8" above that. It worked good, virtually no coon loss that year. Now that bottom wire needed to be kept free of vegetation. It was about 800' around the perimeter and I had a bum knee. I was walking it once a month or so with a sprayer and Roundup. Made a nice clean band about 6" wide under the fence. The next srping she came out with one of her grand pronouncements, "I don't want any really harsh insecticides like Roundup used here this year". Kinda hard to deal with that logic.

And now, back to our regularly scheduled thread! Here's a video dealing growing pumpkins over a bed of cover crop "straw". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gspMfZMbZK4
 

Crabbergirl

Super Moderator
Staff member
Awesome video. After watching that I think maybe rye might be a good way for me to go. I could sow it directly where I want it and over sow it for an even thinker cover. Holy Cow Alan! You sound like me. I tried horse manure and got some kind of wierd stringy ground cover. Goat poop got me nettles (stinging, even though you can use them as tea I prefer to pull them, my hands show the proof all welted) The best thing I have found was mushroom compost. But at $30 a yard it is a little high for me.
I liked the sound of the Sudex but it maybe more work than I have time for.The lot I can use is 1 acre +/- and I would cut with a bush hog then rake into a wagon to use where needed. But in no way could I allow it to grow to several feet. It has to be kept to some degree manicured. I don't have to use the entire plot but can if I choose to. I was thinking I could just grow it in the portion of garden that I let rest over our winter , which is usually mild but was bitter this year and last. Lots to think about for next year.
During the summer I cut the vacant lot and use what we call pasture grass. It is like wire grass but grows tall and mounds up. If I let it grow to about 8-12 inches it shreds and mounds nice when cut. The only draw back is seeds that maybe produced during that growth.
Your farm is beautiflu by the way and I can tell you have put a lot of loving care into what you do. Thanks so much for sharing your information with us.
 

Crabbergirl

Super Moderator
Staff member
This area has two primary soil types, either light sand or a heavy, almost clay loam. The result is either too dry, or too wet, sometimes in the same field.

I know it is said that you can't "make" topsoil but in four seasons I did a lot to get that sand to show some color and retain moisture. Left to my own I could have that into a very productive plot. I just can't find any way to inject any common sense into my dealings with the owner.

Prime example, one year we split the cost (she gardens as much of the plot as she wants) of electric fence to keep the coons out. Bottom wire 3-4 inches off the ground and one 8" above that. It worked good, virtually no coon loss that year. Now that bottom wire needed to be kept free of vegetation. It was about 800' around the perimeter and I had a bum knee. I was walking it once a month or so with a sprayer and Roundup. Made a nice clean band about 6" wide under the fence. The next srping she came out with one of her grand pronouncements, "I don't want any really harsh insecticides like Roundup used here this year". Kinda hard to deal with that logic.

And now, back to our regularly scheduled thread! Here's a video dealing growing pumpkins over a bed of cover crop "straw". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gspMfZMbZK4

Alan,
I use vingar and salt , one gallon to one pund and it kills evenything you soak with it. I put my sprayer on my tractor and drive and spray all the fence lines. I even use it as an edge along the road where the creeping weeds grow over the asphalt. It makes a great weed killer and can be bought cheap at wearhouse style stores. As long as you only ues it where needed it will not effect the PH of the soil around it. Try to stay away from the drip line of anything you want to keep. ;)
 

Alan in Vermont

New Member
I've heard about using vinegar but never tried it. How long does an application keep the crap growth down? I know there are industrial vinegars that are a higher percentage of acid but can't find any supplier within reasonable distance.

Here I am, 15 miles from the biggest city in this state and I can't believe the limited access I have to "stuff". Tools and techniques that were introduced in the more urban areas take decades to become available and accepted up here. In a prior lifetime (it seems that long ago) when I was supervising construction projects we were still using equipment and practices from the 60s and it was 1989 in the rest of the country.
 

Crabbergirl

Super Moderator
Staff member
I usually don't give it time to even spout before I spray again. I usually spray about every 2 months. But when I stop for the winter it might be 12 weeks before I start seeing green sprouts.I bet it would last longer for you. Do a preemptive strike aand beat the sprouts out of the ground.
I feel your pain Alan. I am 60 miles from the biggest city in Fl and I might as well be 1,000,000. You don't have any Ag dealers close by? Alot of ours are carrying organic options now such as vinegar.
 

Wombat

Active Member
Interesting thread here:) I'm fortunate enough to be able to garden all year in my climate, I just alter the crops/flowers from cool to warm etc. I also use no chemicals whatsoever...never have done. In the cool season I use a mixture of fenugreek and oats as a green manure and the warmer season buckwheat and mung beans. These are great soil conditioners and when dug back into the beds add a wonderful mix of minerals and nitrogen to the soil.
The vinegar and salt mix works well for me too especially in the warm season as weeds seem to grow o'night.
I only have a about a third of an acre but it's fairly productive......great clips Alan very interesting indeed. Regarding your lack of (organic) suppliers, would NOFA be able to assist you there? I'm not sure where you are situated in VT but they may be able to help you with distributors in your area...just a thought.
 

Crabbergirl

Super Moderator
Staff member
Wombat,
The fenugreek and oats , do you grow that yourself or it something you buy and mix?
I don't have much time lately for time consuming things, but I would love to know how you do your gardens.
 

Wombat

Active Member
Hi Crabber I started using these quite few years ago and it works really well. I always leave about a half bed to go to seed instead of digging them all into the bed. Therefore I always have continuous supply. I originally bought the seed from my organic supplier and it was fun growing the oats to maturity as I've never done it before. The fenugreek self seeds pretty well too, but my favourite are the mung beans as the sprouts are really nutritious. Every second year I also sow mustard seed in the same beds and also dig them in before they mature, it's a great nematode deterrent. :)
 

Crabbergirl

Super Moderator
Staff member
Cool about the mustards. My neighbor who was a commercial farmer in Ga said he just ordered the nematode stuff he uses and it was $85 for 30 lbs! I grow them every year but give them away to the food bank. Maybe I will turn part of them in. I have to look into the fenugreek and oats. I have almost stopped winter gardening ( our weather is like yours not too much "winter") that would be a good time to let stuff go to seed. So do you sow both seeds in the same areas or do you keep them seperate? If you mix them that would be more consistant right?
 

Wombat

Active Member
It may sound a little strange but my nematodes are a little different to your nematodes....so I'm told. I'll have to check this out as well. I don't sow as many beds in winter only about 3 out of the 6, I let the others go fallow then plant with the oats, mustard and mung beans. I do mix them up on occasions but it all depends on what the bed appears to lacking nutrient and what needs controlling pest wise. In all honesty I'm sure that they're supposed to be sown separately but maybe I'm just a bit lazy and couldn't be bothered to dig then in twice;). During the summer months I intersperse my veggie beds with "good" bug attractants such as different herbs and flowers which work really well. I've tried companion planting over the years according to the recommendations but I've never noticed any discernible difference even with planting things together that are a big no-no, Have you ever tried this method at all and if so, did you notice any good.bad results?
 

Crabbergirl

Super Moderator
Staff member
I did companion plant for years ( I too have gotten a bit lazy...you know that thing called work gets in my way) I never did really notice any flavor changes however it does cut down on pest to some degree. Like Roses love garlic I guess the garlic helps prevent black spot. I am not sure if it was on this forum or on the old Garcden guides that I had a posting about companion planting. I will go see if it is here and I can bring it back to life , if not I will start a new one. It is a good topic and especially for those who are wondering about it. Hmmm thanks for the thought.
 

Steven Michael

New Member
Here all these information which you can share with us are really great. The Organic gardening are really very important with layer of the concept.
 


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