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First post, and I need some help! First off I consider myself an intermediate gardener, helped out with the gardens growing up as a kid and now getting back into gardening. We have had a vegetable garden for the last 3 years thats done well. But we want to plant some perrenial veggies and fruits, mainly berry bushes like raspberry, blackberry, grapes, and some dwarf fruit trees. Also will have a spot for other perennials like asparagus, strawberries, rhubarb, etc. Last year we built a small barn and dug up and sloped some dirt up to it (its on a bit of a hillside) and we have about a 40x40 foot area between the barn and the fence line thats on a slope we would like to turn into a garden. Basically the barn is 40' across and we could fence the whole area with just 2 fences going from each corner to the existing fence on the property line. The slope across 40' is about 7'. I was planning on 6 rows, so just under 7' wide each and just over a foot drop each.
My first question is about retaining walls. I'm not rich, and this is a lot of area to terrace. My thoughts were pressure treated landscape timbers? How long will these last until they rot out used as retaining walls? Any better method that wont cost a fortune?
Secondly the soil is heavy clay with most any topsoil probably stripped off when we dozed it up to the barn. I'll have to amend it. Suggestions? Should I get a truckload of sand? Mix in some peat? I have an unlimited supply of horse manure (a small mountain behind our property, much has been there for several years already) as well as some of my own grass/leaf/left over veggie compost piles but those are only about 3x3'. I might just truck in some soil to help fill up behind the retaining walls too, but want to minimize that for cost.
And how long do I need to work the soil to get it ready? Just add all the amendments and till and plant this spring? Or should I work it multiple times throughout the year and plant in next year?
Or am I just crazy, this is too much work, and I should find something I dont have to terrace?
Hi and welcome oIHo. You have your work cut out for you but it will reward you in time. To my knowledge, pressure treated timbers should last at least 10 years or more with no maintanience needed. It lasts even when used in salt water so I would think you'll have a lot of years to be trouble free. As for planting, I would amend the soil and plant this season. Good luck and let us know how things are growing.
I personally am organic and would opt for bricks or blocks to prevent the leaching of chemicals. Gloria is correct that even treated wood has a life span when subjected to contact with the ground and or water. Block or brick would be a life time product, and could be bought at discount supply houses and even free in some cases. LEt us know what you find. It sounds like a great plan.
Well upon more research it seems most 'landscape timbers' (the ones that are rounded on 2 sides and flat on the other) that are usually inexpensive are not truly pressure treated, just dipped, and have a much shorter life span (like maybe 10 years). True pressure treated stuff suppose to last several times longer than the dipped stuff.
Crabbergirl -
I would love to use stone or decorative blocks or even stone veneered cinder blocks but its just going to cost too much. Assuming my fenced area is 40' across and I leave 2' from each wall end to the fence line to let the soil level back out that would be about 216' of wall. The first course I planned on wrapping around the barn on 2 sides as well, but I'm not even counting that. It would only have to be a little over a foot tall but still the cost would probably be close to $1,000 just for the cheapest blocks alone. And then I assume on a slope of clay I'd have to dig out a deep trench for all of it which would mean renting some more expensive heavy equipment and lay down gravel and pour a concrete footer. I think by the time I was done, it would be several thousand dollars which I just dont have.
Maybe I should just look at other options around the yard that dont require a few hundred feet of retaining wall. It was just a nice convenient location with southern exposure that would be right next to the barn and the rainwater storage I am going to put on the barns corners. And its a big bare area just asking for something.
Don't give up so easy..have you thought about used railroad cross ties for a retaining wall? Take a look at this link. http://www.railroadcrosstie.com/
I'm not suggesting that you order from them but maybe you can find a place in your area to purchase at a reasonable price.
We have a lot of rocks here on the property, so I used them for retaining walls for the rock gardens.
Have a look around oHIo you may find a farm close by who would love to get rid of field rocks!
Brick a Brack (bricks, blocks, foundations and crushed stone/concrete material) can be bought by the truck load in some areas really cheap. We have a "Realco" recyeling plant that most of that type of construction waste goes to and they "chunk" it in to many sizes, some you can handle with your hands. Then they sell it to the public at a great price. You might look through your phone book before scrapping the idea.
Ron is right , we had 2 large farms that we had share cropers on and their biggest complaint was the rocks that came up. They swore they were going to farm rocks and make a fortune. That was in the Dayton area. You might find someone willing to let you pick rocks. Is it labor intensive ?... of course, but it might be free otherwise. Just a thought.
Don't give up so easy..have you thought about used railroad cross ties for a retaining wall? Take a look at this link. http://www.railroadcrosstie.com/
I'm not suggesting that you order from them but maybe you can find a place in your area to purchase at a reasonable price.
Well I havent given up just yet. Cross ties were my first thought and I do often see piles of them by tracks in rural locations. I figure maybe they are leaving them out so someone could help dispose of them?
But upon further research they would be the worse choice. Ties leach the worse chemicals, and the cheaper used ones often dont have much life left in em.
I priced out lumber at lowes today and even doing it with PT lumber is going to cost more than I realized. I calculated up for the entire project I'll need 266 foot at roughly 14" (thats four 4" timbers) and about 40 4' posts would be right around $1500. Thats not including the fence, arbor, pergola, mulch, additional topsoil, any plants, and spikes or rebar or other hardware. Plus renting or purchasing a post hole digger.
And then there is the questionable quality of Lowes PT lumber... and another somewhat local company that specializes in quality PT landscape lumber (dont know their prices but I am guessing more).
We have a lot of rocks here on the property, so I used them for retaining walls for the rock gardens.
Have a look around oHIo you may find a farm close by who would love to get rid of field rocks!
Thats a great idea but when it comes to stone I worry about its ability to hold up to the forces, I mean dry stacked. I suppose 14" for each wall doesnt sound like a lot but realize this isnt for a 3' wide raised bed this is the hillside. And even getting stone for free if I had to dig and pour a footer, and mortar it all I think the cost would still be up there and probably even more work to do. Actually my family consists mostly of farmers, plenty of stone to be had but its all rounded field stone nothing that will dry stack at all, and I have to have some heavy equipment to dig it all and lift it into the truck. The weight of stone adds up pretty quick and most pieces I couldnt even lift to the tailgate of the truck. Its also about a 2 hr drive to the families farms. We do go up at least once a month but I bring back a truckload of firewood each time - well maybe 6 times would do me for the next winter but so far I have only done 1 so I wouldnt get time to start on stone until the end of summer...
What to do what to do!
If I could borrow a camera I'd photo my plans I have sketched out maybe a visual might give some of you all a better idea what I am trying. Unfortunately my good camera and runner up both died on me in the last few months and my old digicam I cant find the memory card for it, I only ever had 1 and its not a type you can easily get any more.
Well..you certainly have a dilemma and I can relate to trying to keep the price down. Sooo, my thoughts are still on those cross ties... wonder if there's a sealer that could be used on them to keep the chemicals contained? And then maybe keeping an eye out for old buildings being torn down that have usable material to be salvaged like cinder blocks. Sure hope you can work something out, keep us informed.
I'm a landscape architecture student and I've taken entire classes about engineering and how retaining walls work and what not. By far the best way in terms of cost, maintenance, and ease of construction are concrete block retaining walls. You can buy the blocks at any home improvement store. They require no maintenance, and are relatively cheep. If you build the wall with timbers technically they should go down to frost depth, probably around 3 feet in Ohio. Concrete blocks only need to go down about the depth of one block, saving a lot on materials and a lot of digging.
If you're going to buy used railroad ties, the least you could do is buy them from me! (I work for a railroad contractor...)
Actually, obviously it's best to buy them locally.
There are two problems with railroad ties though. The first is that they rot from the inside out. By the time the railroads remove them, they don't have a lot of life left in them. I can't believe some of the broken rottan piles of splinters that they're selling as landscape ties for $20 each at Home Depot. Give me a break!
The second issue that you should be aware of is that crossties are treated with creosote. Creosote treated wood should not be in direct contact with food products. Is it a hazard when used in the garden? Well, you can get a lot of opinions on that. Some folks claim it's very dangerous. I do know that you can get creosote burns from the ties when you handle them if you don't use gloves.
However, is there enough creosote to leach into the soil, be absorbed by the plants and enter the food chain? I don't know... I would be careful about it, and probably not plant things like potatoes or other tubers near the ties. Of course if you want to play it safe, avoid them for vegetables entirely.
MJ, how do the blocks stand up to the freeze/thaw cycle when they're in direct contact with soil? I've seen installations that used a drain material and geotextile adjacent to the wall to prevent moisture. Is that a good idea, or probably overkill? I guess a lot would depend on the wall height, soil type and drainage conditions.
I just finished building a wall with concrete blocks and we didn't use any type of drain materials or crushed stone behind the wall, mainly because it was only around 1 foot tall. If your building walls maybe 2' or taller I would consider putting crushed stone behind the wall and wrapping that with filter fabric to keep soil from mixing with the stone. That helps keep water away from the wall which reduces the weight of the soil pushing against the wall and probably helps with freeze thaw.
Great tip! Especially if you are prone to bouts of heavy rains. I did something like that with the drain field for my water softener. Works great keeps the area from being a "slush pit"
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